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Zero Goldwing Oil Pressure Recovery

14K views 50 replies 9 participants last post by  JK McDonald 
#1 · (Edited)
I restored my 2007 Honda GL1800 3A Goldwing after it was flood submerged for 3 days following the August 2017 Hurricane Harvey. The $2000 restoration with many OEM parts required, among other things, a complete clutch rebuild where I discovered flood debris blocking the clutch housing's secondary trochoidal oil pump scavenge screen which I cleaned along with all engine & clutch cover oil passages to verify they weren't plugged. Everything works but unfortunately after about 50 miles of riding my bike I encountered a problem that according to the 2006 - 2010 Honda Service Manual is zero oil pressure due to a plugged primary oil pump filter screen. I could hear the primary trochoidal oil pump cavitation buzz so I immediately stopped the engine and took it home with my pickup. I checked engine cylinder compression and all meet spec so they're OK. I also checked the primary oil pump outlet pressure using a mechanical pressure gauge and verified there was no pressure while again hearing the primary trochoidal oil pump cavitation buzz.

I removed the Engine Oil Pressure switch and applied a high volume 150 PSI desiccated air flow backwards through the oil system (as well as forwards through the oil filter) and was able to restore oil pressure to the Honda Service Manual's specified 77 PSI requirement (without the oil pump cavitation buzz) but after 20 miles the oil pressure light came on again. I repeated the 150 PSI air pressure oil system purge and recovered the 77 PSI spec pressure again with no oil pump cavitation buzz.

The Honda Service Manual says the oil pump filter screen requires engine removal and splitting the engine block in half to gain access to clean the screen.

I contacted my local Honda dealer about the repair but they said it would be cheaper to buy a new replacement engine than have their mechanics attempt to repair mine.

I read the Honda Shop Manual and figured that I'd need about $1000 of special tools and another $500 OEM parts to disassemble/re-assemble the engine to clean the primary oil pump pick up screen. I will do this really, really complex tear down and reassembly only if the steps below don't work.

I am going to drain the engine oil for the 7th time and replace it with a 2 month soak comprised of 1 quart of Motor Medic Motor Flush (an engine cleaner composed of kerosene & diesel fuel) along with about 1 ounce of a diesel fuel enzymatic organic material dispersant/cleaner (Star Tron) to see if it will loosen the debris blocking the oil pick up screen enough to allow it to go through the primary trochoidal oil pump to the oil filter for removal. If that doesn't work I want to drill a 1/2 inch hole on the bottom of the Goldwing engine to allow me to use a bore scope and bristle brush to dislodge the suspected blockage.

That is where my question for the forum comes in. I've looked at the Honda Service Manual photographs and have identified where I believe I can safely drill the 1/2 inch hole but I need to know if there are any hidden oil passages in the engine block case that I would be drilling. I will be drilling in the port side of the engine case slightly forward of the oil pick up filter screen in an open area between the screen and the engine oil pressure relief valve housing.

I've attached a picture showing the drill location.

Can anybody please tell me if I will encounter any oil passages within the cylinder block case? If there are hidden oil flow passages in this area, can you suggest alternatives?

If nobody can help, I will probably still drill the hole to clean the screen. If I do hit a hidden oil passage, I'll tap the hole with threads and install a clocked screw with a hole drilled orthogonally through it to restore the hidden passage's flow. If none of this works I'll do the rebuild or swap the engine with one taken from a Copart auction bike.

Thanks for your assistance.

p.s. I've seen on YouTube where some people used water based cleaners combined with engine oil to clear an oil pump filter screen but I would never entertain doing that as it would likely cause lots of engine bearing wear.
 

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#2 ·
I think the only ones that can accurately answer your question is someone that has been inside and GL engine and knows exactly where any problem areas could exist. I've had engines out myself (1200 stator removals), but have never split the cases and seen the internal layout of them let alone an 1800. I haven't gone through my service manual to see if there are any possible "safe spots" to drill.
 
#3 ·
Thanks,

Just prior to posting this thread here I sent it to Honda Powersports to see if they'll provide any guidance. Honda has always come through in the past so I'm hoping they'll do it again.

I thought somebody on this forum might know. Buying a junk GL1800 engine at scrap metal prices to dissect it is an option. Removing a junk engine only takes about 15 minutes with a sawzall.
 
#4 ·
Cleaning The Oil Pick-Up Screen

Hey Rglan - From the description of your loss of oil pressure it does sound like the pick-up screen is repeatedly becoming obstructed from contamination. Before drilling an access hole into the bottom of the engine case - you might try flushing the contaminants out using a pressurized cleaning solution while siphoning out the engine case with a small electric sump pump.

The steps you might try are -

1 Mix up a combination (50/25/25%) of diesel, engine flush and a mild rust dissolving chemical (white vinegar will work). 3 - 4 gallons should do initially.

2 Fill the engine case with this cleaning solution to the top mark of the dip stick and let it sit over night.

3 Then fill a gallon or so of the cleaning solution into a container that can be pressurized with air. Attach a line to the bottom of the container that is fitted with a rubber hose + a threaded adapter that will screw into the oil pressure switch location.

4 Install the oil filter with a doughnut piece of inner tube added that will force all the cleaning solution backward into the engine case. This will maximize the reverse flow through the oil pick-up screen and remove all the loosened particle contamination.

4 With the oil pug removed - insert a line from a small electric pump to siphon the cleaning solution and all the floating contaminants out into a plastic milk jug.

5 Repeat until the cleaning solution comes out clean.

Good Luck - Michael
 
#5 · (Edited)
Thanks. I already kinda did as you suggested except I will not use a water based acetic acid cleaners or any other water based cleaner in order to protect bearing surfaces. Using water based cleaners might damage the clutch friction disk materials again leading to another locked clutch. Using water based cleaners might also cause oil filter element disintegration flooding the engine with debris.

I successfully recovered the 77 PSI spec pressure twice. Remember, very little of the cleaning fluid introduced through the EOP (Engine Oil Pressure) switch hole will ever back flow through the tight tolerances of the trochoidal primary oil pump. Further, that tiny back flow will likewise dislodge only a tiny amount of unconsolidated debris clogging the primary oil pump pick up screen. The vast majority of the cleaning fluid introduced through the EOP switch hole will go through the oil filter to the crank shaft piston rod bearings, the camshaft bearings, the alternator drive gear bearings, and the clutch regulator valve or the clutch when the clutch lever is engaged. Anything above 77 PSI is released by the engine oil pressure relief valve unfiltered back into the crank case. The 150 PSI desiccated air I introduced through the EOP switch hole probably provided a very small gaseous fluid flow backwards through the trochoidal primary pump sufficient to dislodge only a tiny amount of any unconsolidated debris blocking its screen, but enough to recover the 77 PSI spec pressure. I don't believe there is any rust on the oil pick up screen because within 3 days of the fresh water flood I drained and purged the crank case oil, followed by an acetone purge to clear out any residual water, followed by fresh oil.

I was only able to get my 1/8 inch bore scope about 3 inches into the oil drain hole until it encountered an obstruction. I had hoped I could get it to the screen to look around but there was no amount of moving it around that could get it past the 3 inch obstruction. I also tried to get the bore scope to the primary oil pump filter screen through the oil filler hole but couldn't get under the transmission gears. I might remove the front gear shift cover and try routing the bore scope through its drain return to the primary oil pump oil screen.

Instead of a small electric pump I used a pneumatic vacuum attached to some 1/4 inch and 1/8 inch clear Tygon tubing. The oil removed is very clean without any settled debris in the cleaned collection pan.

I will daily agitate the 1 quart of Motor Medic Motor Flush plus 1 ounce of Star Tron soak for 2 months. Then I'll add 2 quarts of fresh oil, run the bike for 5 minutes at idle speed in accordance with the Motor Medic instructions, followed by draining. Hopefully the Star Tron will break up any organic contamination or soften it up enough to flow through the pick up screen to be removed by the oil filter. I'll watch the mechanical pressure gauge to verify the 77 PSI spec pressure is maintained. Then I'll change the filter, fill it with 10W-30 and drive it for at least 100 miles. If everything works then I'll declare success and re-install the EOP switch, button up the engine and drive the bike for a 500 mile trip while watching a temporarily installed oil pressure mechanical gauge to detect any pressure degradation.

If I encounter a repeated problem I'm drilling the hole to use my bore scope and brush to clear the suspected contamination. If that doesn't fix the problem, I'll swap out the engine.

Unfortunately Honda Powersports sent me an email saying they weren't qualified to provide technical responses. They suggested that I take my bike to a Honda dealer for their assessment. I guess the Honda Powersports CSR didn't read my case # 09974712 where I told them that I already did that and was told they'd only replace my engine. Too bad Honda Powersports no longer routes technical service questions to their engineering department like they used to. Goldwing owner technical service questions are now blown off and ignored.
 
#6 ·
Rubber Doughnut -

Hey Rglan - Placing a doughnut shaped piece of inner tube under the oil filter blocks the outer ring of circular oil flow holes from passing the cleaning solution on to the crank/rod/etc...bearings. Applying the chemicals through the oil pressure switch inlet allows it to slowly flow back through restricted pick-up screen without punching it out or damaging it. The pressure should be kept under the oil pressure relief setting.

I've used this procedure on several barn find 911 Porsche during their initial evaluation and help determine the status of the engine before purchase. Some are really ugly but have reasonably good engines and worth buying once their alloy cases are decontaminated internally. Except for using a remote oil tank - for many years Porsche has used the identical dual oil pump and cam timing chain setup as the 1800 GW. Hope your engine turns out to be salvageable. :)

Good Luck - Michael
 
#7 · (Edited)
Oil Filter seal to block forward flow path.

Thanks, good suggestion. I'll use the rubber doughnut under the oil filter to seal the oil filter flow path (see attached picture). That should cause a slow reverse flow through the trochoidal primary oil pump to the oil pump's oil pick-up screen. If it flows faster than expected, I'll recycle the non-aqueous cleaning fluid composed of 1 quart Motor Medic Motor Flush with 1 ounce of Star Tron enzymatic dispersant/cleaner. I'll still let the cleaner set for a couple of months to work on the suspected screen contamination.

I'll first check out how rubber doughnut seal material reacts to the cleaning fluid. If the cleaner dissolves the rubber I'll fabricate and use a Teflon doughnut seal.

Fingers crossed! If this doesn't work, I'll still try drilling the 1/2 inch hole on the bottom of the engine to insert my bores cope and a bristle brush to dislodge the suspected contaminants.

I still need my original question to the forum answered regarding if I'll be drilling through hidden oil passages in the crank case wall. If anybody can answer that I believe I can safely drill the 1/2 inch hole using a bit with a drill stop installed.
 

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#8 ·
You can get all the tools to remove the engine a lot cheaper from Ebay seller, dans64s5. I already purchased a bunch of the tools. Not the engine tools unfortunately.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Bore scope through transmission linkage cover

It looks like the engine case is only about 6 mm thick where I plan to drill a 1/2 inch access hole. That's pretty thin to have any hidden oil passages running through it.

If the back flush through the Engine Oil Pressure sensor hole doesn't work, I'll next try removing the front engine transmission gear shift linkage cover to insert my bore scope through an oil return hole located behind that cover as shown in the attached picture. If I can, I should also be able to simultaneously insert a long wire handled nylon bristle brush to clear unconsolidated material blocking the primary oil pump filter screen instead of drilling a 1/2 inch hole through the bottom of the GL1800 engine case.
 

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#10 ·
You are a lot more motivated and courageous than I am that's for sure. Good luck to you. Please keep posting as you go forward, I'm sure many of us are interested in your results/findings.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks. I'm a retired NASA Space Shuttle engineer with a Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry & Geology Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Texas. I'm also a disabled Vietnam era US Air Force Nuclear Weapons Specialist veteran who has survived a little pancreatic cancer & Whipple surgery & chemo & radiation bout now for 6 years. After retiring, I spent 2 years living & working in Glacier National Park at the Two Medicine Camp Store working for Xanterra as a barista & short order cook. Beautiful place to tour each summer. GNP is the crown jewel of the US National Parks, the gates to heaven! Spent the last 2 years living in my motor home on my driveway while demolishing & rebuilding our home destroyed by the 49" deep August 2017 Hurricane Harvey flood.

God has been very generous with me, my wife of 40 years, 4 children and 3 grandchildren. I've got a lot of time but not much money so I'm motivated to fix my Wing since insurance didn't cover any of my 6 motorcycles or any of my other 4 vehicles. So far I've successfully resurrected 4 motorcycles, an F350 diesel PU, a Ford Excursion and a 33 foot Class A Ford F53 chassis motor home. They have all run, work and look great, you'd never know they ever suffered flood damage.

One thing I've learned from the flood is if I can't avoid submerging my vehicles in a flood, I have to disconnect their battery. I had to clean up a lot of electrical contact corrosion and had to replace a lot of electronics that were destroyed because their design required a tiny 'keep alive' current while their ignition switch was in the off position. None of the Goldwing's un-powered electronics were damaged except for the fuse box had to be disassembled and cleaned, the starter solenoid & reverse solenoid were corroded and replaced, the alternator failed and was replaced, the radio and its amplifier failed and were replaced. Unfortunately I had to replace the head lights too because they filled up with water eating up the aluminized mirror surfaces. Replacement head light housings represented half of my repair cost. After doing all that restoration I successfully started the engine on the first try but the clutch wouldn't disengage. After eliminating the clutch master & slave cylinders as the cause I realized I had to disassemble the clutch. That was pretty involved requiring another 2 weeks but not too difficult. All replacement parts except the radio & amplifier were new OEM parts.
 

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#12 ·
Kudos to you for sure. Obviously no idle hands and idle mind for you!
 
#13 · (Edited)
Time to re-plan. The inner tube dough-nut plug under the oil filter didn't seal well enough to prevent the cleaning fluid from quickly running by the oil filter mounting nipple threads into the down stream components. It didn't damage anything but it didn't back-flush anywhere enough cleaning fluid through the trochoidal pump to the plugged oil pump filter screen to be effective. I could have wrapped the engine's oil filter mount nipple with Teflon tape to seal this leak path but I would always have worried some Teflon tape might have gone down stream of the filter creating a disastrous critical bearing surface oil flow obstruction.

Building on the dough-nut concept, I cut apart one of the many oil filters that I've accumulated during this endeavor. I filled and sealed the 10 holes inside the oil filter face with Permatex Red High Temp Gasket Maker. Using Permates eliminates the need to do a fluid-to-inner-tube-rubber compatibility test. This along with some Teflon tape wrap around the oil filter mount nipple on the engine should assure an effective seal where all cleaning fluid introduced through the EOP sensor port is back flushed through the trochoidal pump to the plugged oil pump filter screen. My re-designed dough-nut allows easy inspection of the engine's oil filter nipple to assure that no Teflon tape ever gets down stream of the oil filter.

Since the trochoidal pump gear tip clearances are less than 0.008 inch (0.20 mm) I expect the back flush cleaning fluid flow should be very slow. I think I'll rig up an "IV bottle" to let it drain backwards through the EOP sensor port to the trochoidal pump for as long as it takes.

The plugged black fuel hose in the attached picture is to plug the engine oil filter nipple. We have a lot of mud-dauber wasps here in the Houston area that like building mud slug hatcheries in the worst possible places. I don't want that to happen again. During post flood rebuild I discovered mud-daubers had built a lot of nests in my air box so I put some 1/8 inch mesh nylon netting over the 2 rubber inlet tubes to prevent recurrence. You'd think Honda could have incorporated some wire mesh screens in the in-take ports of their flag ship!

I'll let the Permatex cure for a day and see what happens tomorrow.
 

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#15 · (Edited)
Thanks, I wish I could. I have a preload adjustment problem where I can't add more than 360 degrees without having my 12 x 14 foot roller door lock up prior to full extension. The preload is currently set so low that I must carefully hold the hoist chain to prevent it from not only slamming down but also slamming up rolling past the end of travel stops. This wound up breaking the sprocket from the cylinder requiring me to take the door down using 2 come-along winches to weld it back on with some re-inforcement plates. This is dangerous heavy work now that I no longer have a fork lift. Releasing the preload is scary.
 

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#16 · (Edited)
To bad, you can not tilt the bike 45 degrees down on the front. Reading the specs I find that the engine oil change is 3.9qts but rebuild it is 4.8. If you could stand it on end a littl you would be able to get more oil (debris) out of it.
So if you do decide to drill through the bottom you may not have enough thickness of aluminum to put a decent plug in it. You would need about 1/2 an inch thick to put threads into.
Or if you know someone who TIG welds aluminum then you drill your hole, then add a bung hole with a plug. That would require laying the bike completely on it's side, which would help dislodge foreign debris from the sump pick-up.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I suspect the majority of that 0.9 quarts of oil remains in the clutch compartment housing because that oil is drained only by and through the engine's secondary oil pump. Tilting can't get it out. When I removed the clutch housing cover to rebuild my clutch, a lot of oil came out of the clutch compartment even though I'd removed the oil drain plug days before.

To seal the 1/2 inch hole, I plan to use an aluminum plate secured with Permatex High Temp RED RTV Gasket Maker and 3 blind hole self taping safety wired screws. I can do that much faster and more reliably than I can remove the engine, tear it completely apart and correctly reassemble it just to clean a screen. Taking the engine apart is easy; putting it back together correctly is hard requiring meticulous attention to detail that isn't always in the shop manual but comes from knowledge gained by doing it every day under the tutelage of a master mechanic.

Before I cut a 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of the engine case, I'll try accessing, inspecting & cleaning the screen via the oil drain located behind the gear shift linkage cover on the front of the engine as I stated above. I may even be able to safely enlarge that oil drain hole to get better access.
 
#18 ·
Now I let the solution work for 2 months

Yesterday, using an inner tube dough-nut plug under the oil filter, it took less than 2 minutes to introduce the cleaning solution into the engine via the Engine Oil Pressure sensor port feed line using a funnel.

Today it took more than 15 minutes under pressure using my re-designed plugs. l inserted and hand squeezed the Motor Medic Motor Flush bottle (with 1 oz Star Tron) directly into the feed line attached to the EOP sensor port using a conical cap from a bottle of gear oil.

I believe the 15 minutes indicates that both the oil pump and oil pressure relief valve tolerances are good since those are the only 2 paths the fluid could take to get into the engine.

Now I will agitate the solution at least once a day for the next 2 months by rocking the bike on the center stand. On Christmas eve I'll add 2 quarts of fresh oil to the engine and run the engine for 5 minutes while verifying it meets the 77 PSI oil pressure specification. If it meets spec pressure I'll drain the oil/cleaner & refill with fresh 10W-30 oil, hook up a temporary mechanical oil pressure gauge attached to the handle bars to watch the pressure while I drive the bike around.

Fingers crossed, I'm hoping to have a fully restored Gold Wing for Christmas!
 

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#19 · (Edited)
GL1800 Linkage Cover Removed to Access Oil Filter Pick-Up Screen

I did some measuring and found that the primary trochoidal oil pump oil pick-up screen is only about 6.5 inches from the assumed oil slot I think exists behind the GL1800's front engine transmission gear shift linkage cover as shown in the attached pictures.

If my enzymatic cleaning fluid fails to clean the unconsolidated debris from the oil pick-up screen, I'll remove the gear shift linkage cover to attempt clean the screen.

My solution of last resort is to drill a 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of my engine case to access, inspect & clean the screen.

Has anybody seen (or can you please ask your Honda shop mechanic) if the oil slot that I think exists does exist behind the GL1800 gear shift linkage cover? If it does exist, what are the dimensions of the oil slot?
 

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#20 · (Edited)
Phosphoric Acid -

Hey Rglan - It sounds like the pick-up screen steel wire mesh may have become rusted from the flood water your bike sat in. Perhaps you could fill the crankcase with just enough Phosphoric Acid (Or Similar Rust Eater) to only reach the pick-up screen surface ?

Although I've only used this stuff for relatively short periods of time (6 hours max) it was mild enough to neutralize and dissolve rust without damaging aluminum alloy.

Just a suggestion - Michael
 
#21 · (Edited)
Thanks Michael,

Before I try your suggestion I would want to put in kerosene 1 ounce at a time into the engine via the EOP sensor port with the filter path closed until it starts dripping from the engine's oil filter attach nipple. It is at this point that back flow through the crank shaft bearings begins. I'd reduce the reducing agent volume to less that this volume to prevent bearing contact. Since I don't know what bearing materials Honda uses or if they incorporated any faying surface sprays or plating that is susceptible to phosphoric acid, I really don't want to chance damaging them. Further, the trochoidal primary pump shaft bearings couldn't be isolated from the reducing agent introduced via the EOP sensor port. I'll do as you suggest before I cut the 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of the engine case to access, inspect & clean the screen if I can get in writing from Honda that it is safe. If I can't get it in writing, I'll do it only after my 1/2 inch hole recovery attempt fails.

I don't believe there is any rust on the oil pick up screen for 2 reasons:



  1. Within 3 days of the fresh water flood I drained and purged the crank case, engine combustion chambers and rear differential, followed by an acetone purge to clear out any residual water, followed by fresh oil in the crank case & differential, and 2-stroke fogging oil in the combustion chambers in order to put the bike in a coma until I could revive it 2 years later.

  2. I was able to run the engine in my garage for about 3 hours with no oil pressure warning light indications. I changed the oil after the first 10 minutes of run time, then after 40 minutes, then after 2 hours.

I would have taken the bike for a test ride but I had to figure out why I couldn’t disengage the clutch. After eliminating the clutch master and slave cylinder I realized I had to inspect the clutch itself. That required a 4th engine oil drain to work on the clutch. When I pulled the clutch assembly out I found that the clutch friction pad disks had glued themselves to the friction disks. When I pried them apart many of the friction disk pads actually transferred to the friction plates. There was no rust on any of clutch assembly’s steel components however there was a witness mark on the inside clutch cover indicating that it might have filled with dirty water to within 2 inches of the top of the chamber. The oil screen located at the bottom of the clutch chamber had gooey debris on the oil scavenge screen but not enough to block it. I verified the two clutch oil feed paths and one scavenge return path were clear by first vacuuming and then flushing them with 150 psi desiccated air.

After rebuilding the clutch with new parts, nuts, seals & gaskets I reassembled the bike completely in accordance with the Honda Service Manual specifications. After filling the engine for the 5th time after the flood it again immediately started on the first try. I drove the bike 10 times around my subdivision accumulating 25 miles while monitoring it for any unusual noises or performance. At no time during any post recovery engine runs did I ever hear the easily recognized primary oil pump cavitation buzz. That same day my son took his girlfriend for a 15 mile ride.

The next morning I started the engine and immediately noticed a cavitation buzz that went away shortly after starting the engine. I rode the bike 5 miles to my insurance agent’s office to re-insure the bike but about half way there I noticed that my oil light was coming on at idle but would go out when I revved the engine. When I arrived at my agent’s office the oil light would come on a little above idle but would go out above 2000 rpm. I decided that I’d forgo insuring the bike and go home to investigate the problem. On the way home the oil pressure warning light started coming on below 3000 rpm so I stopped the engine and hauled it home.

The next morning I verified that the combustion chamber pressures were OK and attached a mechanical oil pressure gauge to the Engine Oil Pressure sensor port, started the engine and heard a cavitation buzz that changed pitch with engine rpm. The mechanical gauge never rose above 5 psi. I removed the Engine Oil Pressure switch and applied a high volume 150 PSI desiccated air flow backwards through the oil system (as well as forwards through the oil filter) and was able to restore oil pressure to the Honda Service Manual's specified 77 PSI requirement (without the oil pump cavitation buzz) but after 20 miles the oil pressure light came on again. I repeated the 150 PSI air pressure oil system purge and recovered the 77 PSI spec pressure again with no oil pump cavitation buzz.

According to the Honda Service Manual the symptoms indicated my bike has a recurring plugged primary oil pump oil pick-up screen. The way my bike’s problem gradually worsened indicates it is due to a gradual buildup of contaminants on the primary pump’s oil pick-up screen, some of which can be temporarily displaced with a tiny air fluid flow backwards through the primary trochoidal pump.

I took preventive measures immediately following the flood to protect all engine internal components from rust. Any rust that might have formed would have formed only due to a 3 day exposure that was immediately eliminated by purges and new oil. Whatever primary pump pick-up screen rust that may exist is not sufficient to prevent several successful 77 psi specification reacquisitions.

I suspect the same gooey oily sludge I found in the clutch housing has plugged the screen and that it wasn’t cleared by repeated oil changes. I’m hoping the combination of Motor Medic Motor Flush with Star Tron enzymatic cleaner/dispersant will clear the problem over the next 2 months. If it doesn’t I will physically clean the screen either via the assumed oil slot located behind the transmission gear linkage cover or by drilling a hole in the bottom of the case.​
.​

We just had some heavy rains here today so I’ll go down to the creek and collect a gallon of water. The creek is usually brackish but today it should be fresh water. I’ll put some steel wool in it (one dry pad, one dipped in oil) for 3 days and examine them for rust and report the results.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Cupped Ledge -

Hey Rglan - It sounds like you have a well thought out and sensible plan. When I suggested pouring in a few inches of a mild Phosphoric Acid or a Similar Rust Eating chemical into the engine case to help clean the oil pump pick-up screen, I meant to pour it in through the oil filler hole.

At this point I don't think your oil pick-up screen is rusted either. Perhaps you could experiment with something that dissolves the gooey sludge you found earlier on the oil scavenge screen.

There may be a cupped ledge somewhere higher up inside the engine case that has captured a layer of this goo. As the hot engine oil is sloshed around when riding - another portion of sludge is washed down into the oil pick-up screen. You are obviously making progress but to speed up the cleaning process, maybe try filling the engine with your cleaning solution and then roll the bike over a few times...:)

I don't guess a hot water pressure wand spraying into the oil drain hole would loosen and dislodge the goo with the bike leaning over on the crash bars ?

Michael
 
#23 · (Edited)
I just picked up some "Clear Creek" water for the 3 day steel wool rust experiment. The creek, which is tidal, is still flowing out very fast after yesterday's heavy rain so the water should be fresh like the flood water my Goldwing was submerged under a little over 2 years ago. Now I need to go get some steel wool to run the experiment.

Good point Thomas about putting the aqueous phosphoric acid fluid in through the Wing's oil filler port rather than the EOP sensor port. That would prevent exposing the oil pump bearings to the acid if I ever decide to go that route.

Regarding your great comment "...a cupped ledge somewhere higher up inside the engine case that has captured a layer of this goo." Many overhead cam & valve engines I've disassembled always have a little pooled oil sitting around the valve guide stems, so yes there probably is some "goo" there that keeps getting washed down to the oil pick-up screen. I'll do as you suggested and completely fill my engine crank case to the brim with Motor Medic Motor Flush with the Star Tron enzyme cleaner/dispersant for the next 2 months. Then I'll drain all but 1 quart of it, add 3 quarts of fresh 10W-30 oil, remove all combustion chamber spark plugs to purge all cleaning fluid that leaked by the piston rings (prevents bending or breaking piston rods when I attempt to start the engine), turn the engine over with the starter while the spark plug wires are attached to grounded spark plugs (prevents destroying the spark coil windings with internal shorts), re-install cleaned spark plugs, run the bike for 5 minutes, drain the combined engine oil, flush & cleaner; change the oil filter, add fresh 10W-30 oil, and see what happens on Christmas eve.

I do expect to see a lot of white exhaust smoke after I start the engine caused by diesel & kerosene cleaning fluid that will likely leak past the piston rings into all combustion chambers. The white exhaust smoke will probably take about an hour to burn off like the 2-stroke fogging oil did after I first revived the engine last month. The chambers having an open exhaust valve will probably start dripping cleaning fluid from their muffler's condensate drain hole located at the front of the affected muffler(s) before Christmas eve too.

I initially worried about leaving diesel fluid & kerosene in my engine for 2 months because I know it can leach certain alloy metals or plating, especially zinc. Given how durable Honda Goldwings are, I wouldn’t doubt that the Japanese engineers did a cost trade on their gearing & bearing materials to enhance the engine’s life. They likely used high carbon steel gears containing chrome, molybdenum, aluminum and nickel. Heck, after they lapped and ground the gear teeth surfaces I wouldn’t be surprised if the Honda engineers went the extra mile to create on top of the carburized or induction hardened steel gear teeth a very thin very hard iron nitride coating. Aluminum alloys typically incorporate copper, magnesium, manganese, silicon, tin and zinc; but non-acidic petroleum products don’t affect them. Given Houston’s mild winter temperatures and the relatively short exposure my engine will experience, I quickly dismissed this worry.

Looking at the typical o-ring & seal material compatibility with diesel and kerosene indicates that all (but natural rubber) will retain their static & dynamic properties. So the 2 month exposure shouldn't damage any Goldwing engine o-rings or seals. {I found out that Honda Goldwing engines use oil seals manufactured by Arai Seisakusho Co. Ltd. The seals that they provide Honda are made out of VMQ (Vinyl Methyl Silicone rubber). VMQ seals work great in high temperatures up to 180 degrees C but have poor tensile strength, tear resistance, and abrasion resistance in non-oil lubricated rotating shaft seal environments. Arai recommend not using these seals in gear oil, fuel oil, acid or alkali fluid applications. Since I do not ever intend to run the engine except with 10W-30 oil, temporary static exposure to diesel & kerosene should have no detrimental effects.}

If anybody disagrees, please comment with technical rationale.
 

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#24 · (Edited)
Steel Wool Experiment

Steel Wool Experiment to characterize how much rust may have occurred on my Goldwing engine's primary oil pump oil pick up screen during the 3 days my Goldwing was under water due to the August 2017 Hurricane Harvey flood. Experiment samples were kept in darkness for the duration of the experiment to prevent algae growth, same as inside the Goldwing engine. The water that entered my Goldwing's engine was first filtered by the air filter element prior to entering the engine via the crank case breather hose attached to 2 places on the bottom of the air box. Little particulate debris was ever found in the air box during post flood tear down and cleaning even though I believe the air box completely filled with flood water.

On 10-26-2019 JK McDonald [Michael] suggested: "Perhaps you could experiment with something that dissolves the gooey sludge you found earlier on the [clutch compartment] oil scavenge screen." During the first 6 hours of this experiment, the oil droplets floating in the Clear Creek fresh water changed from clear to translucent. If this oil turns into a dark gooy sludge, I'll do Michael's suggested experiment after day 3 to see how it is affected by a solution of 1 quart Motor Medic Motor Flush with 1 ounce Star Tron enzymatic cleaner/dispersant.

Day 0 observations:

  • Two new steel wool pads both submerged in Clear Creek fresh water.
  • One was dipped in slightly used 10W-30 oil, one was not.
  • Clear oil droplets are rising & floating in water from steel wool pad dipped in motor oil.
  • The dry weight of each steel wool pad was 12.0 grams.

Day 1 observations:

  • Oiled pad water very slightly tinged red. Oiled pad remains remarkably free of corrosion retaining bright shiny steel wire. The oil droplets on the water's surface that were observed on Day 0 have changed from clear to translucent white.
  • Un-oiled pad water is rust red colored. Un-oiled pad appears covered with rust.

Day 2 observations:

  • Oiled pad water still slightly tinged red. Oiled pad remains corrosion free. Oil floating on surface of water appears thicker and more clouded. See close-up under water photograph showing cloudy oil adhering to un-rusted steel wool fibers.
  • Un-oiled pad water still rust red colored. Un-oiled pad is covered with rust. See close-up under water photograph showing heavily rusted steel wool fibers.

Day 3 observations:
  • Oiled pad water slightly more red. Oiled pad remained corrosion free. Oil/water emulsion on surface opaque.
  • Un-oiled pad water rust red. Un-oiled pad surface fibers were corroded the most while the fibers below had little rust.
  • After 3 days the Oiled pad weight increased from 12 grams to 16 grams most likely from the added oil weight. No sediments have formed. Water is clear with a light red tint.
  • After 3 days the Un-oiled pad remained at 12 grams however the vessel that contained Un-oiled pad during the experiment has a lot of rusty sediment at the bottom of the container. Water has cleared up a lot, almost looks as light red as the Oiled pad water.

Conclusions: Iron fibers coated with motor oil prior to submerging for 3 days in flood fresh-water are protected from rust. My Goldwing's primary trocoidal oil pump oil pick-up screen should not have any rust on it.
 

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#25 · (Edited)
Steel Wool Rust Experiment Results and Conclusions

Fresh water contains about 10 molecules of Oxygen for every 1 million water molecules.

The water in the vessel containing the oiled steel wool pad did develop a slight rust red color most likely caused by the initial dissolved oxygen in the Clear Creek water that corroded any steel wool lacking an oil film. Oil film clinging directly to steel wool fibers is an effective barrier to the dissolved oxygen.

Likewise, the oil film that formed on the water's surface acts as an effective barrier to atmospheric oxygen re-entering the water. Once the initial oxygen was depleted by corroding exposed iron fibers, further corrosion ceased. Water saturated the ‘clear’ oil floating on the surface of the water until it reached about 600 ppm, then an oil/water emulsion composed of fine water droplets suspended in the oil formed creating the translucent hazy or cloudy appearance.

The 2017 Hurricane Harvey oxygenated flood water that entered my Goldwing's engine likely caused slight rusting that quickly ceased because the stagnant water's dissolved oxygen was consumed and new atmospheric oxygen could not replace it because the engine had an oil layer floating on the surface of the water within the engine preventing oxygen re-introduction. I drained and purged my Goldwing's crank case immediately after the flood.

Conclusion: Rust is not the cause of my apparent primary oil pump oil screen plugging issue. Plugging is assumed the result of bacterial digestion of the oil forming oil byproduct sludge mixed with 10 micron dust/dirt. I assume 10 micron dust/dirt because of the Goldwing’s 10 micron air filter through which the flood water entered my engine.

I speculate that the stagnant water allowed the 10 micron dust/dirt to settle forming a fine silt. This silt may have combined with the oil sludge clinging to the bottom of the crank case to create a mat that is blocking the oil pick-up screen. While diesel oil and kerosene effectively dissolve oil, the enzymatic cleaner/dispersant should eliminate the assumed bacterial formed sludge & silt.

I do not believe I'll use any aqueous acid (phosphoric, acetic or citrus) solutions because I've demonstrated experimentally that little rust exists for these acid based solutions to work on. Further these water based solutions may remove essential plating or sprays. Aqueous solutions could also scrub oil from the VMQ (Vinyl Methyl Silicone) rubber Arai Seisakusho Co. Ltd. oil seals causing seal tears & abrasions leading to oil leaks. Purging these water based solutions forces you to expose your bearings to both water and oil water emulsions which scrubs the lubricating oil from the bearing surface leading to excessive wear, especially to the Goldwing engine's roller bearings. You have extremely high pressure load zones in roller bearings where water instantaneously flash vaporizes causing rapid erosive wear and hydrogen embrittlement induced pitting and spalling significantly reducing the engine’s life. Purging the water would again require changing the oil at 10 minutes, 40 minutes and 2 hours to minimize the wear to metal surfaces. It may not be possible to prevent the damage to the VMQ seals though.

Follow on testing: Experiment oiled steel wool; and oil flotsam cleaning with Motor Medic Motor Flush & Star Tron.
 

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#26 · (Edited)
Wahoo! I found it!

It took me a little while but I finally verified that there is an oil drain slot on the front of the Honda GL1800 engine behind GL1800 gear shift linkage cover (see images below).

I will now be able to access the primary trochoidal oil pump oil pick-up screen without having to split the crank case or having to drill a 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of my engine crank case! If necessary, I could enlarge the oil drain slot by a factor of 2 in length & height (without damaging anything) to allow inserting both a bore scope and a small wire handles bristle brush to view & scrub the debris that is blocking the screen. The neat thing about accessing the pick-up screen through this hole is that it is an internal passage designed by Honda to connect the crank case sump to the engines gear shift linkage compartment.

I ordered a gear shift linkage compartment cover gasket P/N 11391-MCA-000 that costs $6.72. In addition to the cleaner/dispersant solution that I'm using, I plan to inspect & scrub the oil pick-up screen now that I know I can access it.
 

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