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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I restored my 2007 Honda GL1800 3A Goldwing after it was flood submerged for 3 days following the August 2017 Hurricane Harvey. The $2000 restoration with many OEM parts required, among other things, a complete clutch rebuild where I discovered flood debris blocking the clutch housing's secondary trochoidal oil pump scavenge screen which I cleaned along with all engine & clutch cover oil passages to verify they weren't plugged. Everything works but unfortunately after about 50 miles of riding my bike I encountered a problem that according to the 2006 - 2010 Honda Service Manual is zero oil pressure due to a plugged primary oil pump filter screen. I could hear the primary trochoidal oil pump cavitation buzz so I immediately stopped the engine and took it home with my pickup. I checked engine cylinder compression and all meet spec so they're OK. I also checked the primary oil pump outlet pressure using a mechanical pressure gauge and verified there was no pressure while again hearing the primary trochoidal oil pump cavitation buzz.

I removed the Engine Oil Pressure switch and applied a high volume 150 PSI desiccated air flow backwards through the oil system (as well as forwards through the oil filter) and was able to restore oil pressure to the Honda Service Manual's specified 77 PSI requirement (without the oil pump cavitation buzz) but after 20 miles the oil pressure light came on again. I repeated the 150 PSI air pressure oil system purge and recovered the 77 PSI spec pressure again with no oil pump cavitation buzz.

The Honda Service Manual says the oil pump filter screen requires engine removal and splitting the engine block in half to gain access to clean the screen.

I contacted my local Honda dealer about the repair but they said it would be cheaper to buy a new replacement engine than have their mechanics attempt to repair mine.

I read the Honda Shop Manual and figured that I'd need about $1000 of special tools and another $500 OEM parts to disassemble/re-assemble the engine to clean the primary oil pump pick up screen. I will do this really, really complex tear down and reassembly only if the steps below don't work.

I am going to drain the engine oil for the 7th time and replace it with a 2 month soak comprised of 1 quart of Motor Medic Motor Flush (an engine cleaner composed of kerosene & diesel fuel) along with about 1 ounce of a diesel fuel enzymatic organic material dispersant/cleaner (Star Tron) to see if it will loosen the debris blocking the oil pick up screen enough to allow it to go through the primary trochoidal oil pump to the oil filter for removal. If that doesn't work I want to drill a 1/2 inch hole on the bottom of the Goldwing engine to allow me to use a bore scope and bristle brush to dislodge the suspected blockage.

That is where my question for the forum comes in. I've looked at the Honda Service Manual photographs and have identified where I believe I can safely drill the 1/2 inch hole but I need to know if there are any hidden oil passages in the engine block case that I would be drilling. I will be drilling in the port side of the engine case slightly forward of the oil pick up filter screen in an open area between the screen and the engine oil pressure relief valve housing.

I've attached a picture showing the drill location.

Can anybody please tell me if I will encounter any oil passages within the cylinder block case? If there are hidden oil flow passages in this area, can you suggest alternatives?

If nobody can help, I will probably still drill the hole to clean the screen. If I do hit a hidden oil passage, I'll tap the hole with threads and install a clocked screw with a hole drilled orthogonally through it to restore the hidden passage's flow. If none of this works I'll do the rebuild or swap the engine with one taken from a Copart auction bike.

Thanks for your assistance.

p.s. I've seen on YouTube where some people used water based cleaners combined with engine oil to clear an oil pump filter screen but I would never entertain doing that as it would likely cause lots of engine bearing wear.
 

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I think the only ones that can accurately answer your question is someone that has been inside and GL engine and knows exactly where any problem areas could exist. I've had engines out myself (1200 stator removals), but have never split the cases and seen the internal layout of them let alone an 1800. I haven't gone through my service manual to see if there are any possible "safe spots" to drill.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks,

Just prior to posting this thread here I sent it to Honda Powersports to see if they'll provide any guidance. Honda has always come through in the past so I'm hoping they'll do it again.

I thought somebody on this forum might know. Buying a junk GL1800 engine at scrap metal prices to dissect it is an option. Removing a junk engine only takes about 15 minutes with a sawzall.
 

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Cleaning The Oil Pick-Up Screen

Hey Rglan - From the description of your loss of oil pressure it does sound like the pick-up screen is repeatedly becoming obstructed from contamination. Before drilling an access hole into the bottom of the engine case - you might try flushing the contaminants out using a pressurized cleaning solution while siphoning out the engine case with a small electric sump pump.

The steps you might try are -

1 Mix up a combination (50/25/25%) of diesel, engine flush and a mild rust dissolving chemical (white vinegar will work). 3 - 4 gallons should do initially.

2 Fill the engine case with this cleaning solution to the top mark of the dip stick and let it sit over night.

3 Then fill a gallon or so of the cleaning solution into a container that can be pressurized with air. Attach a line to the bottom of the container that is fitted with a rubber hose + a threaded adapter that will screw into the oil pressure switch location.

4 Install the oil filter with a doughnut piece of inner tube added that will force all the cleaning solution backward into the engine case. This will maximize the reverse flow through the oil pick-up screen and remove all the loosened particle contamination.

4 With the oil pug removed - insert a line from a small electric pump to siphon the cleaning solution and all the floating contaminants out into a plastic milk jug.

5 Repeat until the cleaning solution comes out clean.

Good Luck - Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Thanks. I already kinda did as you suggested except I will not use a water based acetic acid cleaners or any other water based cleaner in order to protect bearing surfaces. Using water based cleaners might damage the clutch friction disk materials again leading to another locked clutch. Using water based cleaners might also cause oil filter element disintegration flooding the engine with debris.

I successfully recovered the 77 PSI spec pressure twice. Remember, very little of the cleaning fluid introduced through the EOP (Engine Oil Pressure) switch hole will ever back flow through the tight tolerances of the trochoidal primary oil pump. Further, that tiny back flow will likewise dislodge only a tiny amount of unconsolidated debris clogging the primary oil pump pick up screen. The vast majority of the cleaning fluid introduced through the EOP switch hole will go through the oil filter to the crank shaft piston rod bearings, the camshaft bearings, the alternator drive gear bearings, and the clutch regulator valve or the clutch when the clutch lever is engaged. Anything above 77 PSI is released by the engine oil pressure relief valve unfiltered back into the crank case. The 150 PSI desiccated air I introduced through the EOP switch hole probably provided a very small gaseous fluid flow backwards through the trochoidal primary pump sufficient to dislodge only a tiny amount of any unconsolidated debris blocking its screen, but enough to recover the 77 PSI spec pressure. I don't believe there is any rust on the oil pick up screen because within 3 days of the fresh water flood I drained and purged the crank case oil, followed by an acetone purge to clear out any residual water, followed by fresh oil.

I was only able to get my 1/8 inch bore scope about 3 inches into the oil drain hole until it encountered an obstruction. I had hoped I could get it to the screen to look around but there was no amount of moving it around that could get it past the 3 inch obstruction. I also tried to get the bore scope to the primary oil pump filter screen through the oil filler hole but couldn't get under the transmission gears. I might remove the front gear shift cover and try routing the bore scope through its drain return to the primary oil pump oil screen.

Instead of a small electric pump I used a pneumatic vacuum attached to some 1/4 inch and 1/8 inch clear Tygon tubing. The oil removed is very clean without any settled debris in the cleaned collection pan.

I will daily agitate the 1 quart of Motor Medic Motor Flush plus 1 ounce of Star Tron soak for 2 months. Then I'll add 2 quarts of fresh oil, run the bike for 5 minutes at idle speed in accordance with the Motor Medic instructions, followed by draining. Hopefully the Star Tron will break up any organic contamination or soften it up enough to flow through the pick up screen to be removed by the oil filter. I'll watch the mechanical pressure gauge to verify the 77 PSI spec pressure is maintained. Then I'll change the filter, fill it with 10W-30 and drive it for at least 100 miles. If everything works then I'll declare success and re-install the EOP switch, button up the engine and drive the bike for a 500 mile trip while watching a temporarily installed oil pressure mechanical gauge to detect any pressure degradation.

If I encounter a repeated problem I'm drilling the hole to use my bore scope and brush to clear the suspected contamination. If that doesn't fix the problem, I'll swap out the engine.

Unfortunately Honda Powersports sent me an email saying they weren't qualified to provide technical responses. They suggested that I take my bike to a Honda dealer for their assessment. I guess the Honda Powersports CSR didn't read my case # 09974712 where I told them that I already did that and was told they'd only replace my engine. Too bad Honda Powersports no longer routes technical service questions to their engineering department like they used to. Goldwing owner technical service questions are now blown off and ignored.
 

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Rubber Doughnut -

Hey Rglan - Placing a doughnut shaped piece of inner tube under the oil filter blocks the outer ring of circular oil flow holes from passing the cleaning solution on to the crank/rod/etc...bearings. Applying the chemicals through the oil pressure switch inlet allows it to slowly flow back through restricted pick-up screen without punching it out or damaging it. The pressure should be kept under the oil pressure relief setting.

I've used this procedure on several barn find 911 Porsche during their initial evaluation and help determine the status of the engine before purchase. Some are really ugly but have reasonably good engines and worth buying once their alloy cases are decontaminated internally. Except for using a remote oil tank - for many years Porsche has used the identical dual oil pump and cam timing chain setup as the 1800 GW. Hope your engine turns out to be salvageable. :)

Good Luck - Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Oil Filter seal to block forward flow path.

Thanks, good suggestion. I'll use the rubber doughnut under the oil filter to seal the oil filter flow path (see attached picture). That should cause a slow reverse flow through the trochoidal primary oil pump to the oil pump's oil pick-up screen. If it flows faster than expected, I'll recycle the non-aqueous cleaning fluid composed of 1 quart Motor Medic Motor Flush with 1 ounce of Star Tron enzymatic dispersant/cleaner. I'll still let the cleaner set for a couple of months to work on the suspected screen contamination.

I'll first check out how rubber doughnut seal material reacts to the cleaning fluid. If the cleaner dissolves the rubber I'll fabricate and use a Teflon doughnut seal.

Fingers crossed! If this doesn't work, I'll still try drilling the 1/2 inch hole on the bottom of the engine to insert my bores cope and a bristle brush to dislodge the suspected contaminants.

I still need my original question to the forum answered regarding if I'll be drilling through hidden oil passages in the crank case wall. If anybody can answer that I believe I can safely drill the 1/2 inch hole using a bit with a drill stop installed.
 

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You can get all the tools to remove the engine a lot cheaper from Ebay seller, dans64s5. I already purchased a bunch of the tools. Not the engine tools unfortunately.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Bore scope through transmission linkage cover

It looks like the engine case is only about 6 mm thick where I plan to drill a 1/2 inch access hole. That's pretty thin to have any hidden oil passages running through it.

If the back flush through the Engine Oil Pressure sensor hole doesn't work, I'll next try removing the front engine transmission gear shift linkage cover to insert my bore scope through an oil return hole located behind that cover as shown in the attached picture. If I can, I should also be able to simultaneously insert a long wire handled nylon bristle brush to clear unconsolidated material blocking the primary oil pump filter screen instead of drilling a 1/2 inch hole through the bottom of the GL1800 engine case.
 

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You are a lot more motivated and courageous than I am that's for sure. Good luck to you. Please keep posting as you go forward, I'm sure many of us are interested in your results/findings.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Thanks. I'm a retired NASA Space Shuttle engineer with a Physics, Mathematics, Chemistry & Geology Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Texas. I'm also a disabled Vietnam era US Air Force Nuclear Weapons Specialist veteran who has survived a little pancreatic cancer & Whipple surgery & chemo & radiation bout now for 6 years. After retiring, I spent 2 years living & working in Glacier National Park at the Two Medicine Camp Store working for Xanterra as a barista & short order cook. Beautiful place to tour each summer. GNP is the crown jewel of the US National Parks, the gates to heaven! Spent the last 2 years living in my motor home on my driveway while demolishing & rebuilding our home destroyed by the 49" deep August 2017 Hurricane Harvey flood.

God has been very generous with me, my wife of 40 years, 4 children and 3 grandchildren. I've got a lot of time but not much money so I'm motivated to fix my Wing since insurance didn't cover any of my 6 motorcycles or any of my other 4 vehicles. So far I've successfully resurrected 4 motorcycles, an F350 diesel PU, a Ford Excursion and a 33 foot Class A Ford F53 chassis motor home. They have all run, work and look great, you'd never know they ever suffered flood damage.

One thing I've learned from the flood is if I can't avoid submerging my vehicles in a flood, I have to disconnect their battery. I had to clean up a lot of electrical contact corrosion and had to replace a lot of electronics that were destroyed because their design required a tiny 'keep alive' current while their ignition switch was in the off position. None of the Goldwing's un-powered electronics were damaged except for the fuse box had to be disassembled and cleaned, the starter solenoid & reverse solenoid were corroded and replaced, the alternator failed and was replaced, the radio and its amplifier failed and were replaced. Unfortunately I had to replace the head lights too because they filled up with water eating up the aluminized mirror surfaces. Replacement head light housings represented half of my repair cost. After doing all that restoration I successfully started the engine on the first try but the clutch wouldn't disengage. After eliminating the clutch master & slave cylinders as the cause I realized I had to disassemble the clutch. That was pretty involved requiring another 2 weeks but not too difficult. All replacement parts except the radio & amplifier were new OEM parts.
 

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Kudos to you for sure. Obviously no idle hands and idle mind for you!
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Time to re-plan. The inner tube dough-nut plug under the oil filter didn't seal well enough to prevent the cleaning fluid from quickly running by the oil filter mounting nipple threads into the down stream components. It didn't damage anything but it didn't back-flush anywhere enough cleaning fluid through the trochoidal pump to the plugged oil pump filter screen to be effective. I could have wrapped the engine's oil filter mount nipple with Teflon tape to seal this leak path but I would always have worried some Teflon tape might have gone down stream of the filter creating a disastrous critical bearing surface oil flow obstruction.

Building on the dough-nut concept, I cut apart one of the many oil filters that I've accumulated during this endeavor. I filled and sealed the 10 holes inside the oil filter face with Permatex Red High Temp Gasket Maker. Using Permates eliminates the need to do a fluid-to-inner-tube-rubber compatibility test. This along with some Teflon tape wrap around the oil filter mount nipple on the engine should assure an effective seal where all cleaning fluid introduced through the EOP sensor port is back flushed through the trochoidal pump to the plugged oil pump filter screen. My re-designed dough-nut allows easy inspection of the engine's oil filter nipple to assure that no Teflon tape ever gets down stream of the oil filter.

Since the trochoidal pump gear tip clearances are less than 0.008 inch (0.20 mm) I expect the back flush cleaning fluid flow should be very slow. I think I'll rig up an "IV bottle" to let it drain backwards through the EOP sensor port to the trochoidal pump for as long as it takes.

The plugged black fuel hose in the attached picture is to plug the engine oil filter nipple. We have a lot of mud-dauber wasps here in the Houston area that like building mud slug hatcheries in the worst possible places. I don't want that to happen again. During post flood rebuild I discovered mud-daubers had built a lot of nests in my air box so I put some 1/8 inch mesh nylon netting over the 2 rubber inlet tubes to prevent recurrence. You'd think Honda could have incorporated some wire mesh screens in the in-take ports of their flag ship!

I'll let the Permatex cure for a day and see what happens tomorrow.
 

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I'm looking up the definition of " trochoidal pump " now . If you need advice on any torsion spring counter- balance, give me a shout. I'm at home there. Semper Fi.

Sent from my E6830 using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Thanks, I wish I could. I have a preload adjustment problem where I can't add more than 360 degrees without having my 12 x 14 foot roller door lock up prior to full extension. The preload is currently set so low that I must carefully hold the hoist chain to prevent it from not only slamming down but also slamming up rolling past the end of travel stops. This wound up breaking the sprocket from the cylinder requiring me to take the door down using 2 come-along winches to weld it back on with some re-inforcement plates. This is dangerous heavy work now that I no longer have a fork lift. Releasing the preload is scary.
 

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To bad, you can not tilt the bike 45 degrees down on the front. Reading the specs I find that the engine oil change is 3.9qts but rebuild it is 4.8. If you could stand it on end a littl you would be able to get more oil (debris) out of it.
So if you do decide to drill through the bottom you may not have enough thickness of aluminum to put a decent plug in it. You would need about 1/2 an inch thick to put threads into.
Or if you know someone who TIG welds aluminum then you drill your hole, then add a bung hole with a plug. That would require laying the bike completely on it's side, which would help dislodge foreign debris from the sump pick-up.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I suspect the majority of that 0.9 quarts of oil remains in the clutch compartment housing because that oil is drained only by and through the engine's secondary oil pump. Tilting can't get it out. When I removed the clutch housing cover to rebuild my clutch, a lot of oil came out of the clutch compartment even though I'd removed the oil drain plug days before.

To seal the 1/2 inch hole, I plan to use an aluminum plate secured with Permatex High Temp RED RTV Gasket Maker and 3 blind hole self taping safety wired screws. I can do that much faster and more reliably than I can remove the engine, tear it completely apart and correctly reassemble it just to clean a screen. Taking the engine apart is easy; putting it back together correctly is hard requiring meticulous attention to detail that isn't always in the shop manual but comes from knowledge gained by doing it every day under the tutelage of a master mechanic.

Before I cut a 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of the engine case, I'll try accessing, inspecting & cleaning the screen via the oil drain located behind the gear shift linkage cover on the front of the engine as I stated above. I may even be able to safely enlarge that oil drain hole to get better access.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Now I let the solution work for 2 months

Yesterday, using an inner tube dough-nut plug under the oil filter, it took less than 2 minutes to introduce the cleaning solution into the engine via the Engine Oil Pressure sensor port feed line using a funnel.

Today it took more than 15 minutes under pressure using my re-designed plugs. l inserted and hand squeezed the Motor Medic Motor Flush bottle (with 1 oz Star Tron) directly into the feed line attached to the EOP sensor port using a conical cap from a bottle of gear oil.

I believe the 15 minutes indicates that both the oil pump and oil pressure relief valve tolerances are good since those are the only 2 paths the fluid could take to get into the engine.

Now I will agitate the solution at least once a day for the next 2 months by rocking the bike on the center stand. On Christmas eve I'll add 2 quarts of fresh oil to the engine and run the engine for 5 minutes while verifying it meets the 77 PSI oil pressure specification. If it meets spec pressure I'll drain the oil/cleaner & refill with fresh 10W-30 oil, hook up a temporary mechanical oil pressure gauge attached to the handle bars to watch the pressure while I drive the bike around.

Fingers crossed, I'm hoping to have a fully restored Gold Wing for Christmas!
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
GL1800 Linkage Cover Removed to Access Oil Filter Pick-Up Screen

I did some measuring and found that the primary trochoidal oil pump oil pick-up screen is only about 6.5 inches from the assumed oil slot I think exists behind the GL1800's front engine transmission gear shift linkage cover as shown in the attached pictures.

If my enzymatic cleaning fluid fails to clean the unconsolidated debris from the oil pick-up screen, I'll remove the gear shift linkage cover to attempt clean the screen.

My solution of last resort is to drill a 1/2 inch hole in the bottom of my engine case to access, inspect & clean the screen.

Has anybody seen (or can you please ask your Honda shop mechanic) if the oil slot that I think exists does exist behind the GL1800 gear shift linkage cover? If it does exist, what are the dimensions of the oil slot?
 

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Phosphoric Acid -

Hey Rglan - It sounds like the pick-up screen steel wire mesh may have become rusted from the flood water your bike sat in. Perhaps you could fill the crankcase with just enough Phosphoric Acid (Or Similar Rust Eater) to only reach the pick-up screen surface ?

Although I've only used this stuff for relatively short periods of time (6 hours max) it was mild enough to neutralize and dissolve rust without damaging aluminum alloy.

Just a suggestion - Michael
 
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