[Big Bird]

I've been really flattening the cat with my CB Antenna research. Got some good help here on one issue, now I'd like to ask specifically about another one and particularly to any antenna Jedi out there.

In all my reading, I'm coming down to a few things that I think seem to be physical truths:

1) longer antennas do better

2) dual antennas at such a short distance apart as they must be on a wing are a negative. You are MUCH better with a single CB antenna split for CB and AM/FM/WB peformance.

3) the bulk of the antennas out there are "ground effect" antennas and the Wing doesn't present enough metal to get a good ground effect. Lacking that, it would seem to be highly advisable to use a no-ground-effect antenna.

So I may get either a single straight 2' antenna (folding or detachable) or a single folding 3' antenna, based on my clearance height issues discussed over there. If I opt for the former for convenience, understood, it's a big performance hit under #1. Got it.

My sheer puzzlement though is -- why are so many wings using dual antennas (heck, its OEM) and so few using no-ground-effect antennas?

I have no idea why folks will take the performance hit for #2 (it's not like the dually aesthetic is that hot) and not go for the performance gain of #3.

Is there any good single no-ground-effect antenna, splittable, tunable and either detachable / foldable that folks can recommend? All the kits and all the dealer suggestions I see seem to miss out on at least one count.

 

[tfdeputydawg]

I've been really flattening the cat with my CB Antenna research. Got some good help here on one issue, now I'd like to ask specifically about another one and particularly to any antenna Jedi out there.

In all my reading, I'm coming down to a few things that I think seem to be physical truths:

1) longer antennas do better
True

2) dual antennas at such a short distance apart as they must be on a wing are a negative. You are MUCH better with a single CB antenna split for CB and AM/FM/WB peformance.
This I disagree with! A single antenna for all functions w/a splitter is NOT as good as a separate CB antenna

3) the bulk of the antennas out there are "ground effect" antennas and the Wing doesn't present enough metal to get a good ground effect. Lacking that, it would seem to be highly advisable to use a no-ground-effect antenna.
My experience has shown me the marine type antenna do not do any better than the OEM Wing antenna

So I may get either a single straight 2' antenna (folding or detachable) or a single folding 3' antenna, based on my clearance height issues discussed over there. If I opt for the former for convenience, understood, it's a big performance hit under #1. Got it.

My sheer puzzlement though is -- why are so many wings using dual antennas (heck, its OEM) and so few using no-ground-effect antennas?
See responses above

I have no idea why folks will take the performance hit for #2 (it's not like the dually aesthetic is that hot) and not go for the performance gain of #3.

Is there any good single no-ground-effect antenna, splittable, tunable and either detachable / foldable that folks can recommend? All the kits and all the dealer suggestions I see seem to miss out on at least one count.
My experience has been none work any better than the separate OEM Antenna and setting the SWR to the lowest possible ratio you can get on the channel you intend to use the most.

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[Big Bird]

Hi again tfdeputydawg. I appreciate your input and your experience. I am trying to balance it off summaries like this one and other more technical propagation analysis things that argue substantively to the contrary.

BTW, Wayne was very helpful and confident his product was the best single antenna out there, his 2' solo w/ splitter would blow away OEM dual CB & AM/FM/WB rig for CB performance, no negative impact on FM, maybe a slight hit on AM. So your experience and your SME's advice are not quite in sync, but vive le diference.

I am exploring the no ground effect idea as a sideline to that (I like the Sierra-MC offerings, but lite on NGE) and welcome some other opinions.

 

[santini1953]

TFdeputydawg , i agree with you ! I am not piloting the space shuttle so i am not gonna be that picky as to analyze the difference , one way or another !

 

[L2R]

BigBird,

Some people need to explore and own the best. Or maybe you have an unusual need to reach out with your CB. Nothing wrong with that if it's your thing. Just understand that Honda probably had someone spend a few hundred of hours investigating this too as they are pretty proud of their standard of quality.

You may well find a better one but I am not sure that many require it. After all, most of us are talking to another bike that is within our line of sight or back a 1/4 mile at the red light.

I have been here over a year and not heard of anyone digging as much dirt on antenna's as you have. So, as you are really into this, go figure it out and report back what you find out. When you start talkin' skip, give me a shout.

 

[santini1953]

Big Bird , i have a 100 watt Palomar kicker somewhere for that CB ! I think i would use a 6 ' steel whip with it ! I know you can shoot skip with it and talk to L2R !!

 

[Big Bird]

Thanks for your opinions and your presumptions. Go ahead, have some e-sport and lay on some more unsubstantive endorsement of the status quo. You very well may be right, but I was hoping there might be a NASA guy down here, since we've ended the manned space program, who has a PhD in interstellar propagation and an inquiring mind.

FYI:

For reasons of sheer convenience reference, I am tempted to go with the 2'.

Since that is so much shorter, and size matters , I don't want to leave anything else on the table as far as performance. This is not all an "is anal retentive hyphenated?" personality thing and certainly not coveting HAM radio largesse, but rather a matter of looking to not cave in on all fronts and wind up installing something that works about as well as a megaphone.

 

[L2R]

Thanks for your opinions and your presumptions. Go ahead, have some e-sport and lay on some more unsubstantive endorsement of the status quo. You very well may be right, but I was hoping there might be a NASA guy down here, since we've ended the manned space program, who has a PhD in interstellar propagation and an inquiring mind.

FYI:

For reasons of sheer convenience reference, I am tempted to go with the 2'.

Since that is so much shorter, and size matters , I don't want to leave anything else on the table as far as performance. This is not all an "is anal retentive hyphenated?" personality thing and certainly not coveting HAM radio largesse, but rather a matter of looking to not cave in on all fronts and wind up installing something that works about as well as a megaphone.

WOW!!.... LMAO twice. Did you just find www.dictionary.com or is this status quo?
What is e-sport?
No, wasn't thinking anal retentive, I was going more for obsessive compulsive... but hey, it's your disorder to choose.

The "unsubstantiated status quo" comment is a rip. Isn't status quo substantiated by definition? We're all stuck in it so I am pretty sure about it. And since it's my status quo, I guess it's mine to endorse and yours to ignore.

Got some negative vibes in the way you used status quo. This could be good or bad seems like to me. Sliced bread is status quo, been around a long, long time.

As for the megaphone thing, I kind of like it. most CBs have that option. God knows (not unsubstantiated-I just spoke to him) my speakers suck. At least piping the mp3 thru the megaphone, I would be able to hear it tho' the quality would be.....well, who knows, it might be almost as good.

Been a hoot-have fun and let us know how it works out for ya.

 

[tfdeputydawg]

I know Wayne is proud of his product. I will not dispute his word as I have yet to try it.
Just giving my experience having sold and installed base units and mobiles back when we had 23 channel radios and on into the 40 channel era.

 

[santini1953]

I wonder if i place a large ball of aluminum foil on my antennae will it ( A ) receive better ( B ) transmit better ( C ) stay the same ( D ) make people laugh at me

 

[tfdeputydawg]

Ground plane means below the antenna for a reflecting surface. Also a ball of foil would not be large enough to help.
Nor would putting a "floor" of foil in the tour pack.
About the best one can hope for w/a properly tuned antenna is up to about 2 miles during the day and anywhere from 2 up to possibly 6 mile during the "quieter" time of evening and night.
One will receive from a much greater distance than one can transmit.
When setting the SWR you need to be outside away from obstacles. When using the meter to check SWR, one needs to knell beside the bike as your body will effect the reading. Yes, that means when you are on the ride the SWR will be affected, add a passenger and it changes again!

 

[L2R]

I learned a lot here about antennas. All I ever knew was, the taller the better and whip antennas were the rage back in the day.

So if one really wanted to get the best possible reception, wouldn't you mount a whip on the highest part of the bike? It would get looks I guess mounted on your helmet but on the other hand, while manual, becomes uni-directional. Hope someone makes that an action item and tries it out, I am anxious to here back.

 

[tfdeputydawg]

Or try dual co-phased 102" whips. 1 mounted on the rear and one mounted on the front

 

[WayneWil]

The easiest way to determine if the OEM dual is better or worse is to take 2 bikes with the dual setup going in the same direction and separate to the point where you are able to just communicate and then fold the AM/FM down and you will hear the difference. This will not be as pronounced as a top loaded antenna but will show you the advantage of a single antenna.
Almost everyone that is familiar with a splitter is only familiar with the capacitance tunable splitter, Firestick, and Harada, that have loss thru the matching network. My splitter is made with the coax for the cb running straight thru and capacitance coupling of the AM/FM, thus the lose to the AM signal and no no loss to the CB. I cannot figure out why people do not understand this.
As far as NGP antennas I have always stated they were made for fiberglass boats and only used on a M/C because the owner was not capable of properly mounting and tuning an auto or truck style antenna. The motorcycle has almost as much ground plane as a truck mirror, just not as high. If you read the info on these antennas on Firestick site it basically says the same thing.

 

[tfdeputydawg]

Thanks Wayne for the explanation.
You are absolutely correct in that my only experience w/a single antenna was w/the old splitter.
If I ever buy another bike, I'll be over for the GL2way/Bikemp3 treatment along w/your single antenna set up.

 

[Big Bird]

Wayne, thanks for your expertise. I think you're product is where I'll wind up. Just working through some knowledge and my character flaws, ha ha.

tfdeputydawg, you're a straight shooter. Thanks.

 

[detdrbuzzard]

don't forget one of your antennas is for the radio. for the cb the antenna and coax cable work in combo to get an swr reading of 1.5 or less so it doesn't always take a longer antenna but tuning what you have. on my old vans i used a 4ft pal fire stic and 18 feet of coax and usually it worked

 

[Big Bird]

yes, I've seen a lot of mentions that 18' of good coax is like magic.

Also I want to note the that term is "ground plane" not "ground effect" as I wrongly typed at the beginning of this. It seems there's enough metal in a Wing to go with GP as preferable to NGP, just gotta get a good ground.

 

[tfdeputydawg]

I would not be using 18' of coax on the Wing
I'm sure Wayne will advise you. I believe his antenna set up comes already tuned.
Again just rememberring past experience, I would think trying to use that much coax:
1. You would have to loop the excess and that is bad for a CB radio.
2. Where would one put 17'ft of extra coax on a Wing

 

[WayneWil]

18' is referred to as 1/2 wave length of an 11 meter signal which is basically the length of a 27MHz signal. Back in the day it was hard to control the impedance of the coax so the length of coax was cut in 1/4 wavelengths, 9'. All newer, after WW2, coax is at an almost perfect impedance at shorter lengths and so it doesn't matter how long the coax is on a M/C unless you are using a NGP boat antenna.
I have antennas made that have 5/8 or 7/8 wavelength of winding to get a low SWR and yet are very durable. And yes, we pretune every antenna to 1.3 or less, usually several hundred at a time, license plate mount, sissy bar mount, GL1800, all on our Valkyrie Tourer, VTX, Spyder RS, and GL1800.